get to game. members of law enforcement, first responders and marathon participants were honored. thank you for your tweet about whether the u.s. citizen suspect should be treated as enemy combatant. you were split but say constitutional rights are important. that's it for us in washington. >> chris: i'm chris wallace. we'll get the latest on the terror attack in boston when we talk live to police commissioner ed davis next. ♪ ♪ >> we are eternally grateful for outcome tonight. we have a suspect in custody. >> chris: boston is happy to have him t suspect in custody. but what does it tell us about the cracks in security? we ask two congressional leaders on intelligence issues. senator dianne feinstein and congressman pete king. then, how do we find terrorists without giving up our freedom?

with cameras and images everywhere, is more brother the answer? we sit down with philadelphia police commissioner charles ramsey an terrorism effort phillip flood. plus, the bombings raise new question about the drive for immigration reform and gun control. we ask the sunday panel how the attacks will influence the debates. and the power player of the week. the man who followed president bush every step of the way. all right now. on "fox news sunday." ♪ ♪ >> chris: hello again from fox news in washington. at the end of a week that saw the first mass bombing in the u.s. since 9/11, we are going to focus today on one central question: where do we stand now in the war on terror? first, let's get the latest on the investigation from boston police commissioner ed davis. as we welcome you, commissioner, i know i speak for people across the country when i say congratulations,

sir. job well done. >> good morning, chris. thank you very much. >> chris: let's start with the suspect dzhokhar tsarnaev. what is his condition? have authorities been able to speak to him yet? >> the suspect is in serious but stable condition. the questioning will be done by a special team sent in by the f.b.i. as far as i know that has not happened yet. >> chris: is he able to speak? is he in a condition to speak? are they waiting for that? >> he is in condition to be interrogated at this point in time. he is progressing, though. and we're monitoring the situation carefully. >> chris: is there any evidence at this point that there were other people involved in this plot? foreign or domestic? and they may be planning more attacks? >> i can't get in too much but we are examining every

possibility. we told people the at boston we feel they are safe at this point in time. we continue to say that. there may be other components that could lead to charges down the road. this is a very intensive and wide ranging inquiry. >> chris: did the two brothers from any indication you have plan more attacks? again i get to public safeties y aspect of this. is there a possibility there are more explosives out there unaccounted for? >> it's possible. but we have already searched any of the locations that we know are directly connected with the two brothers. they clearly had other explosives. they dedicated the explosives at the scene of the arrest and shoot-out in watertown. we have feel they had plans to use the explosives possibly on soft targets. >> chris: so you think there were plans for more attacks on the homeland? >> that is my assessment based on the fact that there are a

significant number of explosives found at the scene of the arrest. >> chris: how confident can you be that they don't have more explosive still out there, sir? >> we cannot be positive, but we are confident these were the two actors and the two individuals that were carrying out this mission. and they are either dead or arrested at this point in time. >> chris: i understand that you are limited in what you can say, but i have to ask you. what was the motive? do you have any sense of why the two young men who had lived for years in this country, suddenly turned to terrorists? >> i think that question will be answered over the course of the investigation. we have great investigators from the f.b.i., the state police and boston police working on this. right now, i can't say precisely what the motive was. >> chris: you can't say because you don't know or you can't say because you can't say? >> i can't say because i can't say. >> chris: understood. do you have reason to believe that the older brother tamerlan was the leader in this?

and that dzhokhar may have been the follower? >> i can't hear him. >> chris: okay. we have lost the commissioner temporarily. while we try to re-establish that connection, we're going to continue our conversation. and with so many questions still unanswered we'll come back to commissioner when we can. so many questions still unanswered about the terror plot and how to protect our homeland we invited two congressional leaders on national security to discuss what happens now. dianne feinstein is chair of the senate intelligence committee. congressman pete king is head of the house sub committee on counterterrorism and he joins us from new york. senator, congressman, hold on, we're going to go back to the police commissioner. do you have a sense whether the older brother tamerlan was the leader in this? and dzhokhar was somehow followed him in the conspiracy? >> any information along those lines is based upon conjecture at this point in time.

i don't know definitively who was the motivator here. there is clearly evidence published publicly to indicate the older brother travelled overseas and may have been involved in extremist views. but again, that is not part of the investigation at this point in time. >> chris: let me just ask you one other question in that respect. to you know anything about who tamerlan met with? his involvement with extremists when he was in russia for the six months last year? >> i do not. >> chris: what set the brothers off on their final rampage on thursday night? had you identified them 10:00 thursday night? were you closing in on them? or were they just trying to go out in a final burst of violence? >> we were not closing in on them at that particular time.

i think they decided to go active after the pictures were disclosed publicly. tragically, people were murdered as they started a rampage. i want to say on officer collier, i believe he was attacked and and his murder led to the enap rehens of the individuals. the individuals were out to kill other people. i think we force a hand by putting the pictures out there. officer collier is a hero. >> chris: absolutely. were they planning andp trying to escape or kill as many people as they could? and they figured it would end with their death? >> i only know what transpired after the release of the photos.

people can draw a conclusion what their motivation was. i can't say what we have determined at this point in time because of the federal investigation. >> chris: commissioner davis, thank you. thanks for taking time to talk to us. we congratulate you and the first responders for your great work this week. >> thank you, chris. i appreciate that. >> chris: well, we have already introduced senator feinstein and congressman king. talk to them about the policies. senator feinstein, one of the big issues that has come up now, should dzhokhar tsarnaev be treated as a criminal, or treated under the miranda rule and read his rights and given a lawyer or treated as enmyth combatant with no such protections? >> i believe strongly the former. that is the only legal way to proceed. i do not believe under the military commission law that she is eligible for that. it would be unconstitutional

to do that. one of the great things in america we come together at times of trial. i very much regret the fact that there are those that want to precipitate debate whether he's enemy combatant or whether he is a terrorist, murder, et cetera. federal law, we have had 435 terrorist convictions. under federal law. we had 100-plus arrests. maybe half a dozen under the military commission. this is clear to me that the course that can be taken, the high value interrogation group. they are skilled and they know how to do this. the miranda right can be read at a later time. he has reportedly been shot through the throat, he is incubated and he can't talk now. there is time to do the investigation, to make a clear

assessment and move from there. so i really regret all of this discussion. which is creating a conflict that need not be there. the administration is redty foreadyfor this. >> chris: let me bring in congressman king. despite the comments of feinstein do you think dzhokhar tsarnaev should be treated as enemy combatant? >> i think he should be treated as enemy combatant. there are so many questions unanswered and so many potential links to terrorism here. the battlefield was not in the united states so i believe he's enemy combatant. he would not be tried before military commission. he would be tried in civilian court and the statements taken from him cannot be used against him in the trial. right now, one of the only links we have as the chechen involve in the al-qaeda mov movement. are there other conspirators out there?

where do they get the radicalization? are there mosques or imam we should look at? who did his brother meet with in russia, chechnya? these are questions that can be contained only if he does not get miranda rights. right now, there is a public safety exception, that will expire in 48 hours. if that, he can lawyer up and stay quiet. i'm not interested -- he will be convicted one way or another. right now they need to get intelligence. this is a unique opportunity to go to treasure throw of intelligence. >> chris: excuse me, i want to get to intelligence. i know you have been briefed this week. what can you tell us about plot at this point? was there foreign involvement? what do you know of anything about the older brother, tamerlan's trip to russia last year? >> we do not know specifics. however we do know there was likely a call from russia. before he went back to tagastan and chechnya, asking

about it. conjecture would lead one to believe it may have come from him running jihadist site on his website. anyway, he went home for six months. that is a lapse. we will find out what happened in those six months. i think there is likely going to be an assessment. that this was somebody who did want to participate in a jihadist event. there is sample evidence, fingerprints i understand, direct testimony from one of the people that had his legs blown off, that he recognized him. they admitted to the driver of the car they hijacked that they were the bombers. so i think there is going to be a great deal of evidence put tonight to be able to convict him. and it should likely be a death penalty case. under federal law. i believe the federal competence in doing this at this time is extraordinary.

let me finish. i believe the h.i.g. can -- >> chris: high interrogation -- interrogation -- >> they have done with it others and got convictions. >> i'm not worried about a conviction. he will be convicted. i wage intelligence to save american lives and that can only be done effectively if he is treated as an enemy combatant and not access to a lawyer. >> chris: you both made your point very ably. let me ask you if what do you make of the fact because of the russian request, the f.b.i. interrogated the older brother tamerlan in 2011 about the ties to radical islam. they found he was not a threat. what do you make of that interrogation? what about the fact he returned after six months in russia, he apparently was not on an f.b.i. watch list? >> chris, i have great regard for the f.b.i. and the director mulen. but this is the latest in the series of cases like this. al-awlaki, hassan, robert

headley, bledsoe and now the case with the older brother as the f.b.i. is given information as a potential terrorism, that he look at them and they don't take action and they go out and carry out murders after this. is this something deficient here? what went wrong. there is nothing they could find in 2011. he goes to chechnya in 2012. statements on the website to talk about the radical imam. why didn't the f.b.i. go back to look at this? i don't want to monday morning quarterback. they the a great job in resolving the case but as far as getting information in advance and not seeming to take proper action, this is the 50t fifth case i'm aware of that the f.b.i. tailed to stop someone who became terrorist murder. >> chris: congressman king you said after the bombings -- this is your quote -- "we are letting our guard down." do you believe this attack should have been prevented? you said political correctness

be damned, we have to do more effective surveillance inside the muslim community? >> as far as letting our guard down i was critical of those in congress, some of my own party who want to start cutting the funding for homeland security because they think the war is over. it's not. as far as the other party -- >> surveillance inside muslim community. >> yeah. the threat is coming from within the muslim community in the cases. in new york. that is why commissioner kelly has thousands in the community. but he's smeared by the "associated press." we have stopped 16 plots in new york because we know that al-qaeda shifted the tactics. it's not attack from overseas. we have been able to prevent that. they are getting people in country under the radar screen who have clean records. times square bomber, subway bomber in new york and now we have seen it in massachusetts. 92% of muslims in america are great americans but that's where the threat is coming from.

if they were after the mafia they go to italian community. if you know where the threat is coming, that's where you have to look. >> chris: senator feinstein, you reaction to that? >> that is exactly where they will look. i don't think this is helpful. get the facts and let the investigation proceed. the f.b.i. has good interrogators and they will put a case together that is strong. with respect if we're doing enough, we should look at that but we shouldn't develop distain and hatred on television about it. >> chris: i don't think that is what congressman king is saying. he says that is where the threat is coming from and we have to address the threat. >> this came from two individuals. that's what we know. we do not know what their connections are.

we should find out before we charge them with affiliations. >> chris: i want to ask you a question. reaction to bombings spilled to other issues including gun control. there is some conservatives who say -- some conservatives who say that a million people in boston were forced to stay in their homes, that a lot of those people, particularly in watertown going door to door and there was a concern that this fellow might be on the loose, might break in their house or take hostages, would people like have to had guns? >> some may have, yes. but it's where you are going is -- if where you are going is do they need an assault weapon? i don't think so. >> chris: shouldn't they have the right to decide whatever weapon they feel they need to protect themselves? >> well, how about a machine gun then? we did away on machine guns because of how they're used. >> chris: semi-automatic. >> use a 19-game shotgun and

have good defensive effect. i don't think this is applicable. there are people who want to make the argument but a .12-game shotgun. 2,000 weapons available for people without assault weapon. >> chris: we are running out of time so i won't give you a chance to answer that question, congressman king but i'll give you a chance to answer another question. this has spilled? debate on immigration reform. grassley, the senator from iowa says before we reform the system we have to focus more on who we let in the country. your response? >> well, first, i don't think it should have severe impact on the immigration debate. we should focus whether it should be refined and if people are coming from a country that has terrorist background. strong terrorist element that

that country there should be extra vetting from that country. i'm grandson of immigrants. i have some concern with security aspect of immigration reform i don't think we should use it as an excuse to stop the debate. i do believe if someone is coming from country, which has strong al-qaeda any other type of terrorist element in it, we should not be afraid to ask extra questions or research and to vetting to make sure that people coming in here have no affiliation at all to the terrorist groups. >> we want to thank you for a spirited discussion. we will stay on top of the developments. >> thank you. >> up next, we will get another perspective on the terror threat from two men on the front lines. how vulnerable is the country to another attack?

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usa! usa! >> chris: the manhunt in boston is over. but what did we learn about the terror threat and how best to protect the homeland? we are joined now by two men on the front lines here in washington, phillip mudd who spent more than a quarter censure are you at the c.i.a., the national security council and the f.b.i. and commissioner charles ramsey head of the philadelphia police department joins us from there. gentlemen, welcome to both of you. >> thank you. >> commissioner ramsey is head of the nation's fourth largest police department. what have you learned from boston? is there any way to stop what appears to have been a small domestic terrorist cell? >> well, certainly it's a challenge. i don't think anyone can say we can totally stop these attacks from occurring. but we do learn. as the incidents take place. and we take steps that we can to protect our public. >> mr. mudd, we interviewed seven years ago it turns out

as a power player when you were the number two man on the f.b.i. national security branch. was there -- i'm not just talking about the f.b.i. was there any kind of a breakdown here in our national security operation? and specifically, with regard to the f.b.i.? are you troubled by the fact they were alerted by the russians to the older brother, they interviewed him and they said he was not a threat. he goes to russia. he comes back. they don't seem to have him on a watch list. >> i'm not troubled by this for a few reasons. people fail to consider the implications of false positive. you look at one guy we could have gotten, you forget the other 10,000 who would have come in the net if we look at every person like this every day. so, i look at this and i say these things happen but i suspect there wasn't a dropped ball here. >> chris: and overall, do you see any way you could have prevented the two guys? >> well, i mean we have to see what kind of foreign connections they had, whether the travel to russia meant something. what i have seen so far says we have two kids who are in a closed radical circle. breaking that circumstancele in a state like ours, an open

society is virtually impossible. >> chris: what is your sense? i understand it's speculation, but informed speculation. were they acting alone? were they part of a group? do you see any al-qaeda fingerprints on this? >> the only fingerprint i have seen is possibly ideology, but not operation. every step of the way was red mentary. if you look at -- rudimentary. you have a kid with a hoodie and a cap. if he wants to obscure himself, the hoodie goes on. if they had operational training, i want to know who. they were amateurs. >> but they hurt a lot of people. >> correct. >> chris: some law enforcement officials are criticizing authorities in boston for lacking town the entire metropolitan community. a million people for 1 12 hours. we don't do that if there is a serial killer on the loose. they did that for tsarnaev. they say it's overreaction.

question, would you have done that? was that a reasonable response >> i don't know if we would have done that, because i don't know if we thought of doing it. but it was genius. the right thing for them to do. you have to remember the one brother when he was killed had some kind of device on his body. you don't know if the second person had a device on their body as well. he could easily get on a subway car for example, suicide bomber. very, very dangerous to the public at large. i think they did absolutely the right thing. i don't know where the criticism is coming from. >> chris: it's note really cittism. it's a question. how long do you hold a city hostage in a situation like that? >> it depends on the situation. again, if it was a bold step. i'm not suggesting that you take it in every situation. but i am not privy to the information they had at the time when they had to make that decision. you to assume they knew more than the public at large. the first priority is to maintain the safety of the public, and not allowed any

more people to be seriously killed or injuried. >> chris: mr. mudd, one thing that a lot of us learned this week is how wired a big city is. with the surveillance cameras, all the electronic intercepts the weapons, deck de techors. give us a sense if you will of trade craft. how do you identify in a couple of days two individuals who were the right people, two individuals out of thousands and thousands of spectators along the marathon route? >> you are looking at the sort of explosion of video, smart phones, the video from atm and how incredible that has turned out to be as investigative tool. especially ten years ago i'm not sure we would have had those videos or those photos rapidly enough to identify the guys. you can put together whatever intelligence picture you want. but that video is critical. >> chris: when you have the video, give us a sense, take us inside that special operation center. how do you identify the two guys? >> well, what we did in this case is to say we are going to release it to the public because we don't have time to conduct a month long

investigation. if the guys to something tomorrow, and we didn't release the video to identify them, that is a potential mistake. >> chris: how do you identify the guys so you can release the video? >> one thing you will do is say hey, we have a tip line. if this guy is your neighbor and if he live unless you aparm, take the risk of taking 10,000 phone calls for the one that works. >> chris: commissioner ramsey, new york has something called the ring of steel. 3,000 cameras. just in lor lower manhattan. do you come away thinking you need more cameras and more electronic surveillance in downtown philadelphia? >> yeah, i wish we had 3,000 cameras to be honest with you. it's an invaluable investigative tool. i gives you a historical record before, during, after an event takes place. if you look at london bombings in 2005 or the boston bombings in 2013, had it not been for cameras, these cases would be a lot more difficult to solve in a timely fashion.

add social media on to that with people taking photographs, videos, unrelated to the incident, but being able to have that footal to go through and identify who might have done what in a given situation is just invaluable. >> chris: how do you identify them? is it as simple as looking to see when locate where the bomb site was? and look to see when the bag was placed there? and then go backwards? >> yeah. if they can determine where the explosion may have originated from. you go back to check footal. who was in that area? how long had the package been? who may have dropped that package. can you identify other people in a crowd that could be witnesses to this? it gives you a record that you would not normally have. people across the street taking photographs, there were thousands. had to be thousands of photographs and video footage they had to go through. >> chris: finally, mr. mudt, what to you see as the aftermath of boston? do you think we have to fear

copycats, more of the small domestic terror cells? and how does law enforcement need to respond effectively? not necessarily to catch them. they did it well but prevent it in the first place? >> you will see copycat threats. when i sat there every night with the threat math matrix, after every event, that is the matrix they use to track threats after every event someone could call in and say i want to do something like that. what i fear is people too quickly will categorize this as terrorism. this looks more like columbine than al-qaeda. two kids ra radicalize and between themselves gand out to commit murder. these are murders not terrorists. >> chris: you have a report from russia. he spend six months in russia, kretch anyia in that area where there are radicals, chechen separatist or islamists. how can you write off the idea there was an outside influence here? >> i'm not writing that off.

but i'm saying we want to categorize this, quickly with a simple term. looking at the psychology of clusters like this which i did for 20 years the psychology is not that simple. this two kids dewho decided for whatever ideology they want to commit murder. murder piece is as significant as the terrorism piece. >> chris: phillip mudd, commissioner ramsey. i want to ahh for coming in today. we hope lesson have been learned and will be put in action. thank you. >> chris: up next the sunday panel including two experts on national security. on the state of the war on terror in the wake of the boston bombings. [ male announcer ] in blind taste tests, even ragu users chose prego. prego?! but i've been buying ragu for years. [ thinking ] i wonderhat other questionable choices i've made? [ club scene music ] [ sigh of relief ] [ male announcer ] choose taste. choose prego. plays a key role throughout our lives. one a day women's 50+ is a complete multivitamin

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appearance continue the tradition of singing "sweet caroline" at the first red sox home game since the bombings. and the sox won 4-3. time now for our sunday group. bill kristol of the "the weekly standard." former congresswoman jane harman. former c.i.a. director and now global security consultant general michael hayden. fox news political analyst juan williams. congresswoman jane harman is a former top democrat in the house intelligence committee. what is your take-away from the boston bombings. why did the guys succeed where so many failed over the last decade? how do we respond better to protect the homeland? >> we responded well here. we have to right 100% of the time and they only have to be right once. they exploited obviously successfully a weakness in how the bomb-sniffing dogs ants others were working at this marathon, which had a high police presence. obviously, next time we will have more bomb-sniffing tos or

whatever it takes. i think given our track record since 9/11 of preventing most of these things, that have been tried by amateurs and i agree with phil mudd these were amateurs, i give us high marks. and the response of boston and the country has been absolutely magnificent. this has been a national civics lesson for the country. this guy will be interrogated effectively, tried effectively and incarcerated or given the death penalty. that will be another lesson we can capture people and the rule of law prevails. >> chris: general, what do you make -- this is sort of the, one of the mysterious parts of this of the trip to russia by the older brother. the possibility of a chechen connection. was this open a new front in the war on terror? >> it might, chris. we just don't know. that is part of this that deserves the deepest, hardest working investigation that we can muster. that six months he spent in

tagastan right now is a black hole. we need to learn more about it. did he undergo training there? was there operational direction? i agree with phil mudd if there were operational direction it wasn't good and training doesn't have been to be all that good either. was this part of the alien nast of the young immigrant -- alienation of the young immigrants in the united states? part of chechen anger against moscow? or was this global jihad? we have to find out. >> chris: as we discussed earlier, this reopens the debate how tohandle terror suspects. we already saw fairly contentious debate between dianne feinstein and pete king. juan, tsarnaev is an american citizen, has been here for a tect. should he be treated as a criminal after the public exception questioning, read his miranda rights, told his right to remain silent or should he be treated as enemy combatant so you get all of the intelligence out of him you can? >> it's a matter of the constitution. the fifth amendment rights

against self-incrimination. he is a u.s. citizen, on u.s. soil. he has to be taken in to the u.s. justice system. the u.s. supreme court has never said that someone who is an american who is captured here could be treated as an enemy combat tant. if you look at the record, we have a better record of prosecuting people in the u.s., criminal justice system than folks, i think it's 166 at guantanamo bay. so, when you look at all of this you think to yourself these guys are so unsympathetic. everybody on this show already assumes they're guilty. so who wants to say anything and support of them? but this impacts our rights as americans. every one of us. you cannot have unchecked powers for prosecutors, cops, f.b.i. without saying there will be abuses. there will be false confessions, false imprisonment. that's part of our record as americans. we have to guard against that. we should protect the constitution. >> chris: we also have to protect the homeland, bill.

the question becomes is there an intelligence connection? are there other people involved? do we have enemies planning other plots? how do you balance on one hand constitutional protection, he is an american citizen. with a need to get all the intelligence out of this guy you can? >> well, are we are at war with a global jihadist threat or no? senator feinstein thinks the law enforcement mod is working just fine. that was a very good debate between congressman king and senator feinstein. one as law enforcement model working women, f.b.i. is doing a good job, captured these people. killed another policeman of course but that is what happens sometimes. but everything is fine. you know, we'll see what happens with the foreign connections. but let's not obsess about that. the other model is the guy spent six months abroad. just a year ago. if you don't use enemy combatant for him when are we going to use it? don't we want to know about what connection he is has with the very well established jihadist groups? al-qaeda-connected jihadist group in the caucuses in? elsewhere down there? i bet we know more -- we'll see. look at the e-mail and phone

records but it would be good to interrogate him in case there are other people -- >> chris: congresswoman, you look like you are coming out of your seat. >> i am coming out of my chair. i don't think that is how the model works. the high value interrogation teams will get a lot of information. there is an intel piece to the teams and that 48-hour thing is not an absolute fixed time period. by the way, even in military commissions which have not secured any convictions really against anyone since 9/11, there is a right to counsel and there are procedures, too. all of which keep getting tested and tested and -- >> enemy combatant has nothing to do with military commissions. it means you cannot use what he says to convict him. do we need a single thing he says to convict him? >> probably not. >> so why not interrogate him -- >> because the military commissions don't work. >> i'm not for military commissions. treat him as enemy combatant which is a different thing. if you are happy we have enough interrogation and nothing can be learned from interrogating him -- >> something can be learned. of course it can be.

we will learn it under the federal process and prove to the world we apply the rule of the law to everyone, especially the american citizens. >> chris: we have a minute left. one more issue. general hayden before you were head of the c.i.a. you were head of the national security agency or n.s.a. which is involved in extensive wiretaps and electronic intercepts overseas. in the case of the bush warrantless wiretaps in this country, after boston, will there be a push for more electronic surveillance, videos and other facilities in this country? >> great question, chris. i have been asking myself and public audiences about that for the last four years. how much more of your privacy or your convenience or your commerce do you want us to squeeze in order to make you marginally more safe? serious question. not mine the answer. it's the american public -- >> chris: if it was yours to answer what would you say? >> as a citizen we're at the right place. as bad as the attack was it's revealing from the outside looking in, before we know who

did it, we could not establish this from high-end crime or low-end terrorism. that is remarkable success. but i fear this tragedy, not a catastrophe, but this tragedy is the new normal. we're going to have to live with this risk. >> all right, all right. we'll come back to the next segment. we have to take a break here. when we come back, the impact the boston bombings are already having over the debate over guns and immigration reform.

>> chris: residents cheering

the police. back with the panel. residents spent hours friday inside their homes with the doors locked. while police searched for the second suspect. gun right advocates are asking how many of the folks would like to have guns to protect themselves and protect their families? >> i don't know. maybe many of them would like to have it. i don't think it affects the country. it's a debate that was had. >> chris: congresswoman, you supported gun control. you had f-minus rating from the nra. >> my only f-minus ever. >> chris: here was president obama's angry reaction wednesday after the gun bill voted down in the senate. >> the fun lobbies and allies

lied about the bill and claimed it would create a big brother gun registry, though the bill did the opposite. this was a shameful day for washington. >> after this week, gun control wasn't going anywhere. does this sense, if this was a big event for america, the sense of increased anxiety about the personal safety. does it make gun control steeper climb? >> i don't know how much steeper it could be. this is about closing the gun show loophole, something that nra used to support. this is not about reducing guns that people own already or the kinds they own or anything like that. what happened, this took momentum away and diluteed the momentum for the bill. attention paid elsewhere. it lost.

i hope rand paul's effort to put on negative adds against susan collins, republican who had the courage to vote the close the gun show loophole will be decried by the people of maine. i makes no sense for the republican party to circumstance the wagons and fire in -- circle the wagons to fire in and makes it no sense to make it easier for weapons to be in hands of the wrong people. >> chris: big defeat this week for the president. doesn't this raise questions that were raised before about the chief executive ability to work his will, as we have seen other presidents more successfully do in getting the legislation, agenda through congress? >> i'm not sure i agree with the premise that it's a big defeat for president obama. he's something he wanted to happen but i think he never had it on the agenda until newtown occurred. once newtown happened there was a shift in the polls, the american public opinion. people said we need to do something that you can have the small children slaughtered in idyllic community like newtown, connecticut. right now, and i think the

emphasis is can the senate work with anybody? i mean the silent filibuster -- you had a clear majority of the senators, 55, who supported this legislation. congressman harman pointed out this was no some promize legislation. this was a hard line. so should they have never focused on assault weapon or high capacity magazine? did it waste time? should the president acted more quickly in the aftermath of newtown to get it done? those are tactical measures. but the thing is, as harry reid, the majority leader in the senate said this week, when you have 90% of the american people, and 80% of republicans saying okay, background checks are a good idea. we like that. the senate still can't get it done, the emphasis should be on dysfunction of the senate. 79% of miles per hours say congresmiles perfor 79% of amer.

>> chris: so not a big defeat for president obama? >> of course it is. wednesday night he had a meltdown in rose garden because the senators voted the way they felt was right to shot. is there a serious public policy argument for what happened in new township or aurora, colorado -- >> sorry, the parents of newtown -- >> they want something done. >> i have is sympathy for the parents of newtown but never made public policy argument. >> this is so here is we shouldn't have such easy access to guns or people who are mentally incompetent or people with criminal records or any kind of record that would indicate they should not be trusted with a weapon are allowed to get it. what we see in newtown and daily on the street of chicago, new york, is a slaughter -- >> they have the tightest gun control.

>> where to they come from? places with lax gun control legislation. >> chris: general, i'll bring you in another discussion. there was also talk the week we might see fall-out from boston in terms of the immigration reform. leading conservatives including chuck grassley, the top republican on the senate judiciary committee said slow down on immigration reform. let's focus more on who we let in this country and possible security threats, do you think that a legitimate point? >> british have a phrase they use, keep calm and carry on that. might apply to the legislation. we don't want to be stupid. we want to be careful. but immigration reform is a necessary thing. let me talk from a security point of view. immigration to this country contributes to national health and contributes to our national security. from a very narrow perspective, the former director of the central intelligence agency, we are required not just by law to look like america, by mission

we are required to look like the word. we welcome these kind of folks to come in the united states who want to be contributing american citizens. >> i think we want to know that what they look like, who is in this country? do we have their fingerprints? voters? records? >> let me give a shout-out to marco rubio and john mccain and lindsey graham who aren't backing down. some free advice to the republican party. republican party lost the hispanic vote. if there isn't some effort to reach out for a lot of the people who live in this country you can kiss off any chance, bill, for any foreseeable future -- >> chris: yeah, bill. [ laughter ] let me say on bill's defense he is pro-immigration reform. >> i'm more skeptical of it now than i was six or seven months ago for this reason, with all due respect. let's have serious public policy arguments about this and begin asking how this man who has been reported to the f.b.i. in 2011, went abroad six or seven months came back and had russian passport.

and no problem at all. maybe someone should look at that and look at the border security before we move ahead with 880-page immigration bill. >> the bill is based on border security. >> would it help -- >> we should ask these questions and we should maybe have more detailed questions asked for people who come from certain countries, yes. >> we agree on that. >> chris: thank you, panel. see you next week. make sure to follow us on twitter. @foxnewssunday. up next, the power player of the week. it doesn't matter where a good idea comes from, it only matters that it shows up and makes things better. in that spirit, verizon is proud to announce the powerful answers award. 10 million dollars in prizes for the best ideas. ideas so big, they have the power to change everything. whether it's our inspiration, or yours,

the world's biggest challenges deserve even bigger solutions. the powerful answers award from verizon.

>>. >> chris: they will dedicate the george w. bush presidential library on thursday. in attendance, president obama. four living former presidents and the man that followed bush every step of the way. here is our power player of the week. >> i could literally walk into the oval office without anyone blinking. >> he was the chief private photographer in the bush presidency. in a new book he shows almost the one million pictures he took. >> we developed a good rapport over the years. he didn't have to say anything to me. it was seamless. >> chris: 9/11, he was in the holding room in the florida

school. after the president learned of the attack and started drafting his statement to the nation. >> picked up a notepad and started writing notes. he never looked up until several minutes later, they were replaying of flight 177 hitting the south tower. for the first time the president turns and sees that image that is burned into everyone's memory. >> later in his private cabin, the president talks with his chief of staff. >> the president wanted to return to washington. he was frustrated because they were saying that it wasn't safe. >> chris: he follows events from his office on the plane. >> the president watching the live footage of the twin towers collapsing. he was watching in silence in several minutes and didn't say a word. i truly felt invisible that day. >> chris: there are happier times. inauguration day, 2001, he sits

in his desk for the first time with his dad looking on. >> it was truly proud father-son moment. >> chris: was the father calling the son george, son or mr. president? >> mr. president. >> chris: and the informal moments riding a bike through the west wing, getting a boxing glove and the president's favorite photo. >> chris: why did he like it so much. >> because of barney. he called barney the son he never had. >> also the burden of the job. march 19, 2003, the day he orders the invasion of iraq? >> i saw the emotion in his eyes. i followed him. he walked the entire length of the south lawn around. i waited for him at that moment

in capturing that expression on his face, the look to make the decision. >> chris: he remembers the day he started the job, flying from texas to washington with the president-elect. >> he turns to me, eric, welcome aboard. we will see the world together. i thought to myself, wow, it was a wild ride. it was amazing. i had the ultimate photography job for eight years. president gave me the trust just to be there and document everything. to me that was the ultimate mat experience. >> chris: eric draper hasn't hung up his camera. he was mitt romney's photographer during last year's campaign. he will be taking more pictures of the bushes this weekend. >> we'll see you next fox news sunday.